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azuolyno bicas
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#1 2014-12-01 19:44

PCT

Understanding PCT

PCT, what does it mean?
Post Cycle Therapy.

What does it do?
It returns your Hypothalamus, Pituitary, Testicular, Axis (HPTA) back to producing its own endogenous testosterone production.

How long does it last?
Good question but in my opinion the normal 21 to 30 days protocol is too short unless suppression of the HPTA is minor.

Ok, you produce about 7 mg of testosterone a day or around 49 mg a week on average, some more, some less (usually older guys).
So, you go on a cycle of lets say 500mg of testosterone a week or about 10 times your natural production. The body sees this as too much testosterone and will lower production of testosterone to try to maintain homeostasis (balance). The body loves homeostasis.
Testosterone in a man gets converted into two other hormones; one of those hormones is DHT (dihydrotestosterone) this is done by an enzyme called 5-alpha-reductace. DHT is actually about 3-5 times more androgenic than testosterone.
The other hormone it gets converted to is estradiol (E2), this is a strong estrogen but from now on we will just refer to it as estrogen, even though there are 3 different kinds of estrogen. Testosterone gets converted into estrogen by another enzyme called aromatase. The conversion is called aromatization.

Ok, the body will convert more testosterone into estrogen probably to try and maintain homeostasis, so the more test, the more estrogen. For most this estrogen is not a problem. But for some it will be a problem and this extra estrogen can give side effects like gynecomastia (gyno) or water retention, but one big problem is estrogens suppressive effects on Luteinizing Hormone or (LH) LH is what the pituitary gland sends as a chemical hormone to the Leydig cells in the testicles where the testicles will product testosterone. Estrogen is probably 100-200 times as suppressive as testosterone.
So when LH production stops (exogenous testosterone will do this too) the testicles will stop producing and like anything not being used will atrophy.
What does this mean?
You will get some small balls, no kidding mine have been the size of almonds without the shell.

OK, so you come off a cycle, the exogenous testosterone is tapering down and after about a couple of weeks (this is the clearance time for testosterone cypionate and enanthate) you end up with low levels of testosterone as your endogenous production has long been stopped. Now here where the problem starts. You potentially have the testosterone of a woman, and high estrogen from all that aromatization.
This can be a recipe for disaster, why? Because men need test to feel normal and not only that hard earned muscle will be eaten up by being in a catabolic environment, not to mention there is still going to be some suppression because of elevated estrogen.
I have seen big strong men carry on like crying women in this state; it is very bad, sex drive is zero, no energy, emotional, insecure, the list is long.

So, what can you do?
First of all in my opinion bringing the nuts back online is very important, the most important. This is done with the use of Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG)
It basically is pregnant woman’s urine. HCG mimics LH and as we learned above that LH is the chemical hormone that stimulates the Leydig cells to produce testosterone. HCG is very strong and many times stronger than the amount of LH that the pituitary puts out.
The typical dose is anywhere around 350iu to as much as 2500iu and even in some cases more but I don’t recommend this. Best advice is to use as little as possible to achieve success at bringing the nuts back to life from their nice little vacation.
The half life of HCG is around 3 days or so, so Subcutaneous (Sub-Q) shots or Intramuscular Shots (IM) are done about Every Other Day (EOD or Every 3 Days (E3D).
If you use too much for too long desentization of the Leydig cells can happen and this is not good.
One other thing is HCG aromatizes pretty heavily. So an anti estrogen is always recommended if you shoot more than 500iu and even that if you are gyno prone would be a good idea to add an anti E.
HCG comes in tow bottles or vials and one is powder and the other is a solvent or bacteriostatic water, the water gets added to the powder and this is called reconstitution. Once HCG is mixed it must be refrigerated. In bacteriostatic water it will last around a month.

Now next we want to block the hypothalamus and pituitary gland from that excess estrogen as that in itself is suppressive.
How is this done? With a drug called Clomiphene citrate (clomid). This is really a drug to help women ovulate but it acts as a Selective Estrogen Receptor Modulator (SERM).
It occupy’s the estrogen receptors in the hypothalamus and pituitary and blocks estrogens exertion on those glands. It’s like putting a key in a lock but not turning the key. It is just occupying that space without really doing anything.
Clomid in my opinion works better than another SERM that many people use called Nolvadex. Both pretty much do the same thing but together I have found to be far superior than using any of them by themselves.
Clomid is used to test the pituitary for secondary hypogonadism, clomid @ 100mg a day after 5 to 7 days will double LH responce and increase FSH by 20% to 50%, that is huge.
Both clomid and nolva are in pill form as well as liquid form.
What these do is block estrogen. The body sees this as it is low in testosterone and estrogens suppressive effects are not there as the receptors are blocked. So it see’s this as low testosterone and low estrogen so the body turns on the hypothalamus to produce Gonadotropin Releasing Hormone (GnRH) which in turn tells the pituitary gland to produce LH and FSH (follicle stimulating hormone). FSH is another hormone that stimulates the Sertoli cells in the testicles to produce sperm.

Ok, so lets put this all together.
There are a couple of ways you can do this.
First you can take HCG in small amounts during the cycle to maintain testicular function or you can take it after the cycle is finished to start your PCT.
Either way is fine but if the cycle is very long then long use of HCG can be a problem due to the possibility of desentization of the Leydig cells.
That’s pretty much the last thing you want to do as you want your own LH production to keep the testicles producing test.

So, what you can do is wait about 2 weeks for the testosterone to clear your system or be around base levels of normal producing test and start your HCG, clomid and nolvadex all at the same time.
You don’t have to worry about the aromatization issue because both clomid and nolvadex are anti-estrogens or act as anti-estrogens in the body.
By the way nolvadex is used in estrogen sensitive cancer tissues like in treating breast cancer.

I take clomid at 50mg twice a day (12hrs apart) for 30 days.
I take nolvadex at 20 mg a day for 45 days.
I take anywhere from 1000iu EOD to 2500 EOD for 8 shots (16 days).

So the HCG is taking care of the nuts and taking them off vacation and putting them back to work and the nolvadex and clomid will help the hypothalamus produce GnRH which will tell the pituitary to produce LH and FSH.
Once the testicles are producing test on their own you stop the administration of HCG and let the body take over, kind of like handing a baton when doing a relay race.

Depending on the type of gear, length of time on, amount of gear, all play in this factor of recovery, not to mention the genetic factors involved in shutdown.

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azuolyno bicas
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#2 2014-12-01 19:44

Re: PCT

This is what the doc wrote for the reason why clomid and nolvadex are to be taken together:

Almost everything you hear or read will be anecdotal and therefore subject to no verification. Experiences with hCG while on TRT are posted. The use of hCG for PCT is only partly related to its use on TRT.

hCG while on TRT is used for 2 reasons. One reason is cosmetic. While on TRT it is not unusual and more often expected to have testicular atrophy. This is variable from individual to individual. The other reason is to act as a stimulus so the testicles do not shut down and therefore will be easier to initiate independent function after AAS cessation.

Desensitization is a potential problem with hCG. I do not think you will experience it with doses of 500IU or less 3X/week. Studies have used this dose for considerably long periods. In my patients when hCG was used while on AAS the dose was 1000IU every 3 days with one month on hCG followed by one month off hCG.

hCG for PCT involves additional concepts. This is the timing of hCG in relation to other medications for return of HPTA functionality. Under normal conditions the HPTA is a tightly coupled dynamic feedback loop. It is this coupling that has to be achieved after AAS cessation to return to normal. The analogy I use is the starting of a car by pushing it from behind. Alone the care will not start but with pushing the clutch can be popped and the car started.

After AAS cessation the secretion of LH is nil. It will not be able to initiate T production until a certain stimulus LH level is reached. Studies have shown that the time for this to occur can be lengthy. Thus the idea is to ‘push’ the testicles with hCG and get them started. Once T production is initiated the dependent variable is LH. If the hCG is withdrawn without adequate LH to couple with the testicles return of HPTA functionality will fail.

The increased production of LH is achieved by a dual action of clomiphene citrate and tamoxifen. Clomiphene is a mixed agonist/antagonist (SERM) at the estradiol receptor. Clomiphene will increase the secretion of LH by action at the hypothalamo-pituitary area. Clomiphene will cause an increase in LH and secondarily increases in T and estradiol. Estradiol has a negative feedback influence on the HPTA. Estradiol is 200X the inhibitory effect of T per molar basis. Normal serum levels are the following:

Testosterone: 3-10 ng/ml (10-35 nM/L)
Estradiol: 15-65 pg/ml (55-240 pmol/L)

Tamoxifen will counteract the effect of the estradiol. Once the hCG is withdrawn the LH, initiated by clomiphene and tamoxifen, will couple with the testicles and take over production of T by the testicles. The levels of LH to maintain and couple with the testicles are maintained by clomiphene and tamoxifen. Clomiphene is continued for 15 days while Tamoxifen is continued for 30 days.

In healthy adult men, circulating levels of testosterone have a distinct pattern, with increasing levels during sleep toward a maximum around the time of awakening and a decrease during the day. In PCT hCG is administered every other day. I suggest the same time each injection in an attempt to simulate this rhythm. This is purely empirical but I recommend hCG at bedtime (2200). Clomiphene is taken in divided doses of 50mg 2X/day.

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azuolyno bicas
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#3 2014-12-01 19:45

Re: PCT

What about Vitamin E and recovery?

1982 Jun;29(3):287-92.Related Articles, Links

Effect of vitamin E on function of pituitary-gonadal axis in male rats and human subjects.

Umeda F, Kato K, Muta K, Ibayashi H.

The role of vitamin E in the endocrine system, in particular the pituitary-gonadal axis, was studied in humans and male rats by examining the hormonal differences between vitamin E deficient and supplemented conditions. In vitamin E deficient rats, pituitary content and basal plasma level of FSH and LH were significantly lower than those of the control rats, but testicular content and basal plasma level of testosterone were not significantly changed. On the other hand, in vitamin E supplemented rats, FSH and LH content in pituitary tissue was significantly higher than that of the controls, but there was no significant rise in basal FSH and LH level in plasma. The testosterone level was significantly elevated in both testicular tissue and plasma. It was also demonstrated that basal plasma testosterone and F.T.I. were increased in normal male subjects following oral vitamin E administration and the responsiveness of plasma testosterone levels to HCG was significantly higher during vitamin E administration than before administration. These results suggest that vitamin E may play an important and potent role in hormone production in the pituitary-gonadal axis in humans and rats.

PMID: 6816576 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]


Also, Dr. Shippen a TRT doctor suggested that men with a Vitamin D defiency had less responce from HCG.
Beings that Vitamin D only occurs naturally in oily fish and the yolk of eggs in foods, it needs to be supplemented, or you need to go out in the sun and have your face and upper torso exposed.
Funny thing, I think it was ChefX that suggested that sunlight could increase testosterone levels in men by 128%
In the summer time men tend to have higher levels of testosterone.
Dr. Mircole(sp) suggested that the RDA in vitamin D was far too low, and influenza can be minimised by larger doses of D.

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azuolyno bicas
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#4 2014-12-01 23:29

Re: PCT

However, studies
using testosterone undecanoate in combination with
tamoxifen citrate showed improvements in sperm count,
motility, and pregnancy rates (Adamopoulos et al, 1997,
2003; Adamopoulos, 2000)

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azuolyno bicas
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#5 2014-12-01 23:46

Re: PCT

Tamoxifen With Testosterone. Studies using tamoxifen
citrate in combination with testosterone undecanoate
in men with idiopathic OAT reported improvement
in total sperm count, motility, and functional sperm
fraction after 3 and 6 months (Adamopoulos, 2000).
Pregnancy rates per couple per month of 33.9% in the
treatment group and 10.3% in the placebo group were
recorded (Adamopoulos et al, 1997). Recent studies
conducted with similar designs demonstrated similar
results in idiopathic oligozoospermia using testosterone
undecanoate and tamoxifen citrate (Adamopoulos et al,
2003). The above combination has reported improvement
in sperm count and motility with good pregnancy
rates; however, all the studies are limited to 1
geographical region. Therefore, studies from other
regions may unveil further information on the effectiveness
of this combination.
Clomiphene Citrate. Clomiphene citrate is an orally
active nonsteroidal agent distantly related to diethylstilbestrol.
Its use has been shown to enhance secretion of
LH-releasing hormone and FSH-releasing hormone,
and hence of gonadotropins (Patankar et al, 2007).
Nineteen studies were conducted (18 in human males
and 1 in mink males), in various conditions of male
infertility ranging from oligozoospermia intractable to
hormonal treatment to azoospermia, using clomiphene
citrate. Dosages of 10–25 mg/kg were administered
ranging over periods of 10 days to 9 months. Sperm
motility, concentration, and morphology improved
significantly in oligozoospermic patients (Micic and
Dotlic, 1985; Hayashi et al, 1988; Homonnai et al, 1988;
Breznik and Borko, 1993) (Table 9). More than 50%
pregnancy rates were obtained in oligozoospermic
patients and patients recovered from varicocelectomy
not responding to hCG (Epstein, 1977). Interestingly, 3
out of 6 azoospermic mink males induced pregnancy
(Lukola and Sundqvist, 1986). One study reported
contrasting results in which clomiphene citrate administration
was not found to improve sperm motility and
concentration significantly (Charny, 1979). Clomiphene
citrate improved blood levels of LH, T, FSH, and PRL
(Hayashi et al, 1988), but 1 study reported a significant
decrease in serum PRL levels (Breznik and Borko,
1993). Clomiphene citrate has improved sperm count in
the maximum number of studies and motility and
morphology in approximately 20%–30% of the studies,
and pregnancy rates of up to 50% are evident.
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.2 … 005694/pdf

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NATURAL1978
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#6 2014-12-01 23:51

Re: PCT

Geras sitas straipsnis,azuolas seniau jau buvo imetes,va cia ir skaiciau kad hlomidas veikia tokiu pat budu kaip nolva,tik kazkodel kartu veikia geriau nei po viena.o dar kazkas man cia maike plese,kad hlomidas matai specialus preparatas kad daugiau LH gamintu,toks poveikis gaunasi, bet hlomidas pogumbrio tiesiogiai neveikia o blokuoja estrogenu receptorius kaip ir tamoxa.

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azuolyno bicas
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#7 2014-12-01 23:56

Re: PCT

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azuolyno bicas
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#8 2014-12-02 00:09

Re: PCT

http://www.ijpsi.org/Papers/Vol2%283%29 … 231721.pdf

dar vienas tyrimas kad clomidas ir prov pagerina sperm count, ir kad kartu o ne atskirai..

tik dar nagrineju kad geriau mazesnes dozes t.y.25-50mg/d

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azuolyno bicas
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#9 2014-12-02 00:22

Re: PCT

certoli cell - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sertoli_cell

FSH - In men, FSH stimulates production of sperm
Adult: 1.5 - 12.4 mIU/ml
Role of FSH in male gonadal function.
Simoni M1, Weinbauer GF, Gromoll J, Nieschlag E.
Author information
Abstract
The production of male gametes depends on the concerted action of the two gonadotropins FSH and LH on the testis. The action of LH is mediated through the production of testosterone by the Leydig cells. Since male germ cells possess neither FSH nor androgen receptors, the action of FSH and testosterone occurs through the Sertoli cells. Although the precise function of these two hormones remains elusive, the existing evidence suggest that both FSH and testosterone are able to stimulate all phases of spermatogenesis. In the male FSH is required for the determination of Sertoli cell number, and for induction and maintenance of normal sperm production. The crucial role of FSH in male gonadal function has been clearly illustrated by the discovery of a patient with an activating mutation of the FSH receptor. This patient had been hypophysectomized because of a pituitary tumor and, under testosterone substitution was unexpectedly fertile in spite of undetectable serum gonadotropin levels and had fathered three children. In this patient we could demonstrate a heterozygous activating mutation of the FSH receptor which resulted in cAMP production independent of FSH stimulation. This finding represents the first description of an activating mutation of the FSH receptor and demonstrates that FSH alone maintains spermatogenesis in man. On the other hand, the effects of the lack of FSH action are unclear. Among five men with a homozygous inactivating mutation of the FSH receptor only one was infertile and spermatogenesis was variably affected in the others. However, serum inhibin B values in these men were not completely suppressed and serum FSH levels were only moderately elevated, indicating the possibility that FSH receptor function was not completely abolished by the mutation. Elimination of FSH action is a prerequisite to suppress completely spermatogenesis for contraceptive purposes, while administration of both LH and FSH is necessary to induce sperm production in patients with hypogonadotropic hypogonadism. Experimental immunization of male monkeys against FSH markedly reduced germ cell proliferation and even induced infertility. At the cellular level, FSH stimulates the cAMP-dependent activation of protein kinase A in Sertoli cells, but the molecular mechanism of FSH action is poorly understood. In the primate, the gonadotropin withdrawal achieved by administration of a GnRH antagonist leads to a premeiotic arrest of germ cell proliferation, probably due to inhibition of the mitotic division of A-pale spermatogonia. Therefore, FSH might be the prime inducer of spermatogonial proliferation, while the successive maturation process could proceed independently of FSH. In summary, clinical and experimental evidence support the concept of an irreplaceble role of FSH in the primate. Only the combination of FSH and testosterone, however, supports a qualitatively and quantitatively fully normal spermatogenesis.
PMID: 10456180 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

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azuolyno bicas
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#10 2014-12-02 00:32

Re: PCT

LH - is wikipedijos
Luteinizing hormone (LH, also known as lutropin[1] and sometimes lutrophin[2]) is a hormone produced by gonadotroph cells in the anterior pituitary gland. In females, an acute rise of LH ("LH surge") triggers ovulation[3] and development of the corpus luteum. In males, where LH had also been called interstitial cell-stimulating hormone (ICSH),[4] it stimulates Leydig cell production of testosterone.[3] It acts synergistically with FSH.

In males, LH acts upon the Leydig cells of the testis and is regulated by GnRH.[8] The Leydig cells produce testosterone (T) under the control of LH, which regulates the expression of the enzyme 17-β hydroxysteroid dehydrogenase that is used to convert androstenedione, the hormone produced by the gonads, to testosterone,[9] an androgen that exerts both endocrine activity and intratesticular activity on spermatogenesis.
LH is released from the pituitary gland, and is controlled by pulses of gonadotropin-releasing hormone (GnRH). When T levels are low, GnRH is released by the hypothalamus, stimulating the pituitary gland to release LH.[10] As the levels of T increase, it will act on the hypothalamus and pituitary through a negative feedback loop and inhibit the release of GnRH and LH consequently.[11] However, T must first be aromatized into Estradiol (E2) in order to inhibit LH. E2 decreases pulse amplitude and responsiveness to GnRH from the hypothalamus onto the pituitary.[12]

Changes in LH and testosterone (T) blood levels and pulse secretions are induced by changes in sexual arousal in human males.[13]

High LH levels[edit]
Persistently high LH levels are indicative of situations where the normal restricting feedback from the gonad is absent, leading to a pituitary production of both LH and FSH. While this is typical in the menopause, it is abnormal in the reproductive years. There it may be a sign of:

Premature menopause
Gonadal dysgenesis, Turner syndrome
Castration
Swyer syndrome
Polycystic ovary syndrome
Certain forms of congenital adrenal hyperplasia
Testicular failure
Pregnancy - BetaHCG can mimic LH so tests may show elevated LH
Deficient LH activity[edit]
Diminished secretion of LH can result in failure of gonadal function (hypogonadism). This condition is typically manifest in males as failure in production of normal numbers of sperm. In females, amenorrhea is commonly observed. Conditions with very low LH secretions are:

Kallmann syndrome
Hypothalamic suppression
Hypopituitarism
Eating disorder
Female athlete triad
Hyperprolactinemia
Hypogonadism
Gonadal suppression therapy
GnRH antagonist
GnRH agonist (inducing an initial stimulation (flare up) followed by permanent blockage of the GnRH pituitary receptor)
Availability[edit]
LH is available mixed with FSH in the form of Pergonal, and other forms of urinary gonadotropins . More purified forms of urinary gonadotropins may reduce the LH portion in relation to FSH. Recombinant LH is available as lutropin alfa (Luveris).[19] All these medications have to be given parenterally. They are commonly used in infertility therapy to stimulate follicular development, the notable one being in IVF therapy.

Often, HCG medication is used as an LH substitute because it activates the same receptor. Medically used hCG is derived from urine of pregnant women, is less costly, and has a longer half-life than LH.

trumpai tariant: kursuojant kai uzsispaudzia LH ji mimikuoja hcg, tai lyg masina uzgesta starteris nebesuka todel masina reikia uzstumt (hcg) taip apgaunama sistema (pogumburis)

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azuolyno bicas
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#11 2014-12-02 00:37

Re: PCT

ir siandienos pabaigai, pavargau reikia pailset, nors ir visai idomu..

santrauka cia daugiau nevaisingumas, taciau aas ir kartu susiije..

http://umm.edu/health/medical/reports/a … ity-in-men

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lapinas
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#12 2014-12-02 09:15

Re: PCT

dekui tikrai gera info ir aiskiai parasyta. Tai visgi prova tinka PCT ar ne?

Paskutinį kartą taisė lapesnape (2014-12-02 09:47)

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HRS
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#13 2014-12-02 13:44

Re: PCT

gerai butu kad AZ apibendrinimui tiesiog sablona PTC padarytum po ilgo ir trumpo kurso .butu daugiau suprantanciu-nevisi angl sneka wink

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lapinas
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#14 2014-12-02 14:22

Re: PCT

ir siaip reikia bendru kazkokiu isvadu prieti kaip daryti, nes cia metosi chebra vistiek nesupranta iki galo visko. Tai gal kas nepatinges ir surasys normaliai kaip ir kas ir maziau klausymu ateityje kiltu.

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azuolyno bicas
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#15 2014-12-02 14:41

Re: PCT

lapesnape rašė:

dekui tikrai gera info ir aiskiai parasyta. Tai visgi prova tinka PCT ar ne?

na pagal tyrimus tai nestumo santykiui itakos neturejo, ir kadangi androgenas tai kai kurie rodikliai pablogejo, nutraukus ji, bet spermos kiekis padidejo..
is paprastos puses ziurint, as seniau neigiau ji kaip pct preparata, bet dabar manau kad jis padeda, aisku velgi geriu mazos dozes, dr tyrimas buvo kad TRT su prov. pagerino nestumo reitingus gal ryskiai 40%

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azuolyno bicas
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#16 2014-12-02 14:46

Re: PCT

trumpai apibendrinant:

veiksmu eiga: kraujo tyrimai, bei rezzultatai.
jei pakrites LH - HCG
jei  E2 tai ani e - arimidex(anastrozole), aromasin
jei gyno pozymiai - tamox, letrozole
prolaktinas - caber, brom

jei is kavos tirsciu burt tai dazniausiai buna estro pakiles tai arimidex..

gal kazkas dades, papildys

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lapinas
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#17 2014-12-02 14:47

Re: PCT

azuolyno bicas rašė:

lapesnape rašė:

dekui tikrai gera info ir aiskiai parasyta. Tai visgi prova tinka PCT ar ne?

na pagal tyrimus tai nestumo santykiui itakos neturejo, ir kadangi androgenas tai kai kurie rodikliai pablogejo, nutraukus ji, bet spermos kiekis padidejo..
is paprastos puses ziurint, as seniau neigiau ji kaip pct preparata, bet dabar manau kad jis padeda, aisku velgi geriu mazos dozes, dr tyrimas buvo kad TRT su prov. pagerino nestumo reitingus gal ryskiai 40%

tris kursus dariau  PCT naudojau prova ir tamoxa, kraujo tyrime testas normose, bet neaisku kaip butu buve jei daryciau su kitais vaistais. Bet su laisvu testu negerai.

Paskutinį kartą taisė lapesnape (2014-12-02 14:47)

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azuolyno bicas
Varžybų dalyvis
Vietovė: uk
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#18 2014-12-02 14:58

Re: PCT

na dar jei ilgi prepai eina kaip deconatai enantatai tai reiktu veliau pradet pct , su graziu testo uzbaigimu, mazdaug 3-4sav.
trumpi propionatai ir pn.. apie 2 sav..  be esterio - pora dienu..

geriausia naudot power pct programa:

hcg pirmas 2 sav doze nuo 500iu iki 2500iu eod arba e2o
clomid 30 dienu po 50mg
nolva 45d. 20mg

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NATURAL1978
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#19 2014-12-02 18:59

Re: PCT

lapesnape rašė:

azuolyno bicas rašė:

lapesnape rašė:

dekui tikrai gera info ir aiskiai parasyta. Tai visgi prova tinka PCT ar ne?

na pagal tyrimus tai nestumo santykiui itakos neturejo, ir kadangi androgenas tai kai kurie rodikliai pablogejo, nutraukus ji, bet spermos kiekis padidejo..
is paprastos puses ziurint, as seniau neigiau ji kaip pct preparata, bet dabar manau kad jis padeda, aisku velgi geriu mazos dozes, dr tyrimas buvo kad TRT su prov. pagerino nestumo reitingus gal ryskiai 40%

tris kursus dariau  PCT naudojau prova ir tamoxa, kraujo tyrime testas normose, bet neaisku kaip butu buve jei daryciau su kitais vaistais. Bet su laisvu testu negerai.

Testas normose ,tai kiek?nes zemiau 20 tai cia nieko gero,k zemiau 15 tai h ujovas visai.

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Woody
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#20 2014-12-02 19:25

Re: PCT

azuolyno bicas rašė:

Understanding PCT

PCT, what does it mean?
Post Cycle Therapy.

What does it do?
It returns your Hypothalamus, Pituitary, Testicular, Axis (HPTA) back to producing its own endogenous testosterone production.

How long does it last?
Good question but in my opinion the normal 21 to 30 days protocol is too short unless suppression of the HPTA is minor.

Ok, you produce about 7 mg of testosterone a day or around 49 mg a week on average, some more, some less (usually older guys).
So, you go on a cycle of lets say 500mg of testosterone a week or about 10 times your natural production. The body sees this as too much testosterone and will lower production of testosterone to try to maintain homeostasis (balance). The body loves homeostasis.
Testosterone in a man gets converted into two other hormones; one of those hormones is DHT (dihydrotestosterone) this is done by an enzyme called 5-alpha-reductace. DHT is actually about 3-5 times more androgenic than testosterone.
The other hormone it gets converted to is estradiol (E2), this is a strong estrogen but from now on we will just refer to it as estrogen, even though there are 3 different kinds of estrogen. Testosterone gets converted into estrogen by another enzyme called aromatase. The conversion is called aromatization.

Ok, the body will convert more testosterone into estrogen probably to try and maintain homeostasis, so the more test, the more estrogen. For most this estrogen is not a problem. But for some it will be a problem and this extra estrogen can give side effects like gynecomastia (gyno) or water retention, but one big problem is estrogens suppressive effects on Luteinizing Hormone or (LH) LH is what the pituitary gland sends as a chemical hormone to the Leydig cells in the testicles where the testicles will product testosterone. Estrogen is probably 100-200 times as suppressive as testosterone.
So when LH production stops (exogenous testosterone will do this too) the testicles will stop producing and like anything not being used will atrophy.
What does this mean?
You will get some small balls, no kidding mine have been the size of almonds without the shell.

OK, so you come off a cycle, the exogenous testosterone is tapering down and after about a couple of weeks (this is the clearance time for testosterone cypionate and enanthate) you end up with low levels of testosterone as your endogenous production has long been stopped. Now here where the problem starts. You potentially have the testosterone of a woman, and high estrogen from all that aromatization.
This can be a recipe for disaster, why? Because men need test to feel normal and not only that hard earned muscle will be eaten up by being in a catabolic environment, not to mention there is still going to be some suppression because of elevated estrogen.
I have seen big strong men carry on like crying women in this state; it is very bad, sex drive is zero, no energy, emotional, insecure, the list is long.

So, what can you do?
First of all in my opinion bringing the nuts back online is very important, the most important. This is done with the use of Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG)
It basically is pregnant woman’s urine. HCG mimics LH and as we learned above that LH is the chemical hormone that stimulates the Leydig cells to produce testosterone. HCG is very strong and many times stronger than the amount of LH that the pituitary puts out.
The typical dose is anywhere around 350iu to as much as 2500iu and even in some cases more but I don’t recommend this. Best advice is to use as little as possible to achieve success at bringing the nuts back to life from their nice little vacation.
The half life of HCG is around 3 days or so, so Subcutaneous (Sub-Q) shots or Intramuscular Shots (IM) are done about Every Other Day (EOD or Every 3 Days (E3D).
If you use too much for too long desentization of the Leydig cells can happen and this is not good.
One other thing is HCG aromatizes pretty heavily. So an anti estrogen is always recommended if you shoot more than 500iu and even that if you are gyno prone would be a good idea to add an anti E.
HCG comes in tow bottles or vials and one is powder and the other is a solvent or bacteriostatic water, the water gets added to the powder and this is called reconstitution. Once HCG is mixed it must be refrigerated. In bacteriostatic water it will last around a month.

Now next we want to block the hypothalamus and pituitary gland from that excess estrogen as that in itself is suppressive.
How is this done? With a drug called Clomiphene citrate (clomid). This is really a drug to help women ovulate but it acts as a Selective Estrogen Receptor Modulator (SERM).
It occupy’s the estrogen receptors in the hypothalamus and pituitary and blocks estrogens exertion on those glands. It’s like putting a key in a lock but not turning the key. It is just occupying that space without really doing anything.
Clomid in my opinion works better than another SERM that many people use called Nolvadex. Both pretty much do the same thing but together I have found to be far superior than using any of them by themselves.
Clomid is used to test the pituitary for secondary hypogonadism, clomid @ 100mg a day after 5 to 7 days will double LH responce and increase FSH by 20% to 50%, that is huge.
Both clomid and nolva are in pill form as well as liquid form.
What these do is block estrogen. The body sees this as it is low in testosterone and estrogens suppressive effects are not there as the receptors are blocked. So it see’s this as low testosterone and low estrogen so the body turns on the hypothalamus to produce Gonadotropin Releasing Hormone (GnRH) which in turn tells the pituitary gland to produce LH and FSH (follicle stimulating hormone). FSH is another hormone that stimulates the Sertoli cells in the testicles to produce sperm.

Ok, so lets put this all together.
There are a couple of ways you can do this.
First you can take HCG in small amounts during the cycle to maintain testicular function or you can take it after the cycle is finished to start your PCT.
Either way is fine but if the cycle is very long then long use of HCG can be a problem due to the possibility of desentization of the Leydig cells.
That’s pretty much the last thing you want to do as you want your own LH production to keep the testicles producing test.

So, what you can do is wait about 2 weeks for the testosterone to clear your system or be around base levels of normal producing test and start your HCG, clomid and nolvadex all at the same time.
You don’t have to worry about the aromatization issue because both clomid and nolvadex are anti-estrogens or act as anti-estrogens in the body.
By the way nolvadex is used in estrogen sensitive cancer tissues like in treating breast cancer.

I take clomid at 50mg twice a day (12hrs apart) for 30 days.
I take nolvadex at 20 mg a day for 45 days.
I take anywhere from 1000iu EOD to 2500 EOD for 8 shots (16 days).

So the HCG is taking care of the nuts and taking them off vacation and putting them back to work and the nolvadex and clomid will help the hypothalamus produce GnRH which will tell the pituitary to produce LH and FSH.
Once the testicles are producing test on their own you stop the administration of HCG and let the body take over, kind of like handing a baton when doing a relay race.

Depending on the type of gear, length of time on, amount of gear, all play in this factor of recovery, not to mention the genetic factors involved in shutdown.

Si jau beveik isverciau i lt kalba ryt ar porty imesiu smile

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Susta
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#21 2014-12-02 19:26

Re: PCT

Tai jau gausim visi ant proteino sumest smile)

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Woody
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#22 2014-12-02 19:42

Re: PCT

Susta rašė:

Tai jau gausim visi ant proteino sumest smile)

Nejuokauk taip ;D Cia tik maza pagalba tiem kurie anglu nesupranta, be tirgi nori but dideli ;D

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lapinas
buvęs lapesnape
Registravosi: 2014-10-22
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#23 2014-12-02 20:15

Re: PCT

NATURAL1978 rašė:

lapesnape rašė:

azuolyno bicas rašė:


na pagal tyrimus tai nestumo santykiui itakos neturejo, ir kadangi androgenas tai kai kurie rodikliai pablogejo, nutraukus ji, bet spermos kiekis padidejo..
is paprastos puses ziurint, as seniau neigiau ji kaip pct preparata, bet dabar manau kad jis padeda, aisku velgi geriu mazos dozes, dr tyrimas buvo kad TRT su prov. pagerino nestumo reitingus gal ryskiai 40%

tris kursus dariau  PCT naudojau prova ir tamoxa, kraujo tyrime testas normose, bet neaisku kaip butu buve jei daryciau su kitais vaistais. Bet su laisvu testu negerai.

Testas normose ,tai kiek?nes zemiau 20 tai cia nieko gero,k zemiau 15 tai h ujovas visai.

21 plius daryta ne iš pat ryto

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Lift4Sex
Dažnas senbūvis
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#24 2014-12-02 20:43

Re: PCT

Woody rašė:

Si jau beveik isverciau i lt kalba ryt ar porty imesiu smile

Aš ir turiu kelis superinius straipsnius, tik niekaip nerandu laiko prisėst smile Pasistengsiu šią savaitę išverst.

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lapinas
buvęs lapesnape
Registravosi: 2014-10-22
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#25 2014-12-02 20:47

Re: PCT

Pas mane visa knyga yra pameginsiu paversti

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